How many Grand Cru's in Chablis? Bottle of Billecart riding on it!



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I know my name 'aint Dave, but I can't resist.

There 9 Chablis Grand Cru, according to Wines of the World by Robert Mondavi.

Regards,

Peter.




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Then you and Robert Mondavi both owe me a bottle of Billecart Rose!

Unless Jancis Robinson owes me one 'cause she reckons seven!

Thickening plot. Dave, where are you?




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I guess I should have looked in more than one book, I have just checked Jancis Robinson and of course you are right she say's seven.

I had a second look at "Wines of the World" and it is printed in Italy, I wonder if it is a subtle disinformation campaign against the French.

Anyway Dave, sort this one out if you can, three answers, all three different.

Regards,

Peter.





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Dave's gone missing. I haven't seen him since he took that wretched au pair and the '95 La Tache to dinner two weeks ago.

Please come home Dave. People need you.




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Also not Dave but am puzzled by the previous reply.

Maybe there have been relatively recent changes that I have not followed but I have always thought that there were seven viz., Blanchots, Bougros, Clos, Grenouilles, Preuses, Valmur, and Vaudesir. There has been some contention over the years about La Moutonne (like the Bordeaux issue with Mouton Rothschild being unofficially ranked with the first growths before being formally elevated in 1973) - some have ranked it with the Grand Crus since the 70's (it's a tiny vinyard so it doesn't make much difference anyway). That would make 7 plus an 'unofficial' member.

Don't know anything about Mondavi as a Chablis expert but a quick check with books by Harry Yoxall (1978) and Hugh Johnson (2000) would support the 7+1 answer.

Does anyone have any better information?



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Shucks,ain't close enough good enough!
Go for seven in Chablis heaven.
We should all be given a share in THAT bottle.



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Thanks for the question Brad. No doubt a searingly elegant Chablis has been racing past your tonsils recently! I would like to clear up a few dispersions. Firstly, I was not frollicking with my au pair and a bottle of 95 La Tache - it was a 96. Secondly, there are seven Grand Cru of Chablis. Ken S takes the Billecart. La Moutonne was originally a 1.11 Ha vineyard in Vaudesir until ownership went to the heirs of Simon Depaquit. They conveniently extended the vineyard parameters to include several rows in the climat of Les Preuses. It was declared in 1950 by agreement that the appellation should only be used as Moutonne, covering a 2.5 Ha enclave of the bordering Grand Cru vineyards. If this decree was legal (unknown), then there could be 8 Grand Cru of Chablis. Although some controversy exists, there is probably more debate surrounding the selection of Premiers Crus, in relation to quality confinement. A throwback thought Brad- if a classification system existed in Australia, what would be your choice of the 'seven' Grand Cru Chardonnay producers ? Should be easy when five of those Chardonnay's probably come from Margaret River!



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Dave,I AM pleased that you left one of the two
remaining spaces in your best of seven list
obviously for GIACONDA ( Beechworth, Vic.)
as HEAD of the list.
Please advise if this assumption is incorrect--
better still, list your seven in order.



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Aussie GC chards:
1.Leeuwin-no-one else even close.
2.Giaconda-best of the rest
3.Cullens-96 is stunning
4.Lubiana-watch this space
5.Piper's Brook Summit-wow!
6.Mount Mary-his forgotten wine
7.Sorrenberg-poor man's Giaconda
P.S.The three best chards made in Aus. to date are:
1.95 Leeuwin
2.87 Leeuwin
3.96 Giaconda
(with an honourable mention to the 90 Yeringberg.)




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MD, have you tried the Leeuwin next to the Giaconda??
The Leeuwin is much more of an Australian fruit-driven wine style and has nowhere near the complexity of the Giaconda.The secondary characters of the Giaconda just go on and on like a top Burgundian.
I'm fortunate enough to have a reasonable amount of Giaconda (back vintages to '94) and they are the delights of my life.Was at a Sydney dinner earlier this year where a course was grouped with '95 Leeuwin,'95 Giaconda and '95 SRH Bannockburn.The Bannockburn was totally outclassed in this company and the Giaconda was head and shoulders above the Leeuwin. The '96 Giaconda is a better wine than the '95, so you can see where that puts the '95 Leeuwin!! SOME DISCUSSION PLEASE!!
Cheers Geoff



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re grand cru wines in aus.,
MD's list looks pretty good to me,but I agree with the triple G that Giaconda is probably just on top.Still,both are so far ahead of anything else at this stage it's almost unfair.
I am SO glad some-one else found the SRH over-rated:the wine reminds me of that story of the emperor and his new clothes.(I reckon Petaluma is in the same boat).
other good aus chards include:
briagolong-gippsland
lubiana,worth mentioning again
fox creek-dont laugh-its great value!



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I hope you're not including the 'gold hawk' label in that lot!

Well you'd have to include Leeuwin and Pierro from MR. A cut below MIGHT be Cullen. And banging on the door would be Devils Lair and Voyager. Cape Mentelle? Hmmmm....

The Yattarna would probably make the cut if it had a bit of history - lets be generous and throw it in.

Giaconda would be a natural inclusion. Petaluma's geeeetttttting there. Rosemount has a decent track record, as does Tyrrells for consistency. Stoniers have made a few goodies.

Probably forgetting a few but that oughtta start a few debates!

Other ideas anybody?



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Hi there,

In the book I have before me (Rosemary George's "The Wines of Chablis"), it says the INAO in 1950 agreed to calling the production from the 2,35 ha "La Moutonne", and was also willing to consider creating a seperate grand cru for La Moutonne, but the separate grand cru never happened.

As far as I know, the producer can decide whether he wants to call the wine "La Moutonne" or Les Preuses/Les Vaudisir. The same choice applies to the "lieux-dits" (hamlet, place) of the various Premier cru vineyards. If the vines are found in the L'homme mort lieu-dit of the Fourchaumes parcel, the producer can call his wine either Premier Cru L'homme Mort or Premier Cru Les Fourchaumes. That may also explain why La Moutonne is so rare: the 2.35 ha are not called "La Moutonne" every year...

That therefore means that La Moutonne IS a grand cru, but is considered a lieu-dit of the two grand crus it straddles.

Hope that helps!

Meredith



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No Meredith, it doesn't help! How's a guy s'posed to win a bottle of bubbly if you go and muddy the Grand Cru waters?!!

Just kidding.

Seriously, thanks for the response. I hope Dave is reading!



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WOW
This garrulous fellow reckons 95 Giaconda is better than 95 Leeuwin!!!!!!
Now,I am a Giaconda fan,but in the words of the great John MacEnroe"YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS"
I can only assume you tasted the three wines with a hot Thai curry or Tandoori chicken.Or else you are from Sydney,as we all know they wouldn't know a good wine if they fell over it.(how else could reds from the Hunter sell)
Even RK himself would admit that 95,like 91 and 89,isn't his best effort.
There are many out there,myself included,who think the 95 Leeuwin just may be about the best Aus chard yet made.
Still,I agree with all those who put the two well above the rest,though some-one mentioned Sorrenberg,which I reckon stands with Leeuwin Prelude as the two best $25 whites around.

































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Steve,the '89 Giaconda was a great wine from a wet year - brilliant drink.I agree that the '91 was not a great result.
I still maintain the '95 is a much more complex, structured style than the Leeuwin of the same year.
Along with the '95 Giaconda, I'd rate the '90,'93,'94,'96,'97 and '98 as his best.The '90,'96 and '97 I think are at the head of the pack.You would obviously be surprised at what Rick Kinzbrunner does think of the '95.
By the way,I am from rural NSW and you're obviously a mexican!
Cheers,Geoff




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Steve,
The food and wine scene is VERY much alive in Sydney-I suspect you are from Adelaide or Melb.We got the olympics-nner,nner,neer.
As for this fellow who prefers the Giac. in 95-he says it all himself(he's from the country)Still,each to his/her own.
The 89 Giaconda is unadulterated cats-piss,last tasted in 98 when I likened it to old kreosene mixed with lime cordial.
Generally,though, Giaconda makes outstanding wines even in poor years(of which there are few around there)
PS-just tasted the new-97-release of Leeuwin:pretty good,but well behind the 97 Gia. and WAY behind the 95 Lou.
Cheers,and drink more white burgundy 'cos its much,much better than the lot!!!!!
MD



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Why is everyone bagging Bannockburn? Recently, I was lucky enough to have (the) L.Evans in the restaurant who was kind enough to give me a wee bit of his 95 Giaconda alongside a wee bit of his 96 Bannockburn and OH what a comparison it was...........the Gia was completely blown away by the Bannockburn, Now I know that 95 was not a stunning year for RK but they were still worlds apart.
Steve - stop talking up Sorrenberg! Soon it will be as hard to get as Giaconda!
Melissa Dean - you can have your Olympics, honey. You'll be laughing on the other side of your face in September!



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Sorry,Kate
Sorrenberg is actually cat's pee AND Giaconda is much,much better,even at twice the price-so whatever you do,folks,don't buy Sorrenberg!!!
Is that better?
PS-are you the Kate with an affinity for a particular Mornington Peninsula winery???



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Steve
If I described myself as slim and blonde, would that answer your question @#*!



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Cough,splutter..what!!?
Are you seriously suggesting the Giaconda (in any year) inferior to Gary's?
I do believe you are...
We agree on that other one though.

Geoff



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Sorry GG, you heard right ! I agree with Steve - the Giaconda 95 is not a patch on Gary's 96. I have had the benefit of a side-by-side tasting (albeit tiny) of these two wines and the length and complexity of the Bannockburn made the Giaconda look like a simple, pretty wine. I cannot comment with such authority on other vintage comparisons as I have only ever drunk Gary's 90, 95 and 96 and RK's 92-95 and 97 .... so don't take my opinion to heart !!



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Hi Kate.I was at a Sydney dinner last year where '95s of the Giaconda,Bannockburn and Leeuwin were grouped with a course.The Giaconda was streets ahead of the Bannockburn and much more complex than the Leeuwin.For what its worth Huon Hooke agreed with me but would'nt get Gary's opinion (he was sitting at the next table!)
Geoff



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WOW
This garrulous fellow reckons 95 Giaconda is better than 95 Leeuwin!!!!!!
Now,I am a Giaconda fan,but in the words of the great John MacEnroe"YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS"
I can only assume you tasted the three wines with a hot Thai curry or Tandoori chicken.Or else you are from Sydney,as we all know they wouldn't know a good wine if they fell over it.(how else could reds from the Hunter sell)
Even RK himself would admit that 95,like 91 and 89,isn't his best effort.
There are many out there,myself included,who think the 95 Leeuwin just may be about the best Aus chard yet made.
Still,I agree with all those who put the two well above the rest,though some-one mentioned Sorrenberg,which I reckon stands with Leeuwin Prelude as the two best $25 whites around.

































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